Ella Srholez: The Art of Vulnerability

Ella Srholez: The Art of Vulnerability

[00:00:00] It's really important to reframe that mindset of, I can talk to people about what I'm going through. It's not going to be too much. I just need to find the right people at the right time. Welcome to This Way Up. We are bringing you engaging, informative, and inspiring conversations surrounding all aspects of mental health from the perspective of us as parents and caregivers.

I'm Andrea Nanigian And I'm Emie Waters. When someone you care about is struggling with their mental health, this can be an incredibly stressful and challenging time. So we're here to provide valuable resources to support you as you navigate this journey. Emmie, I am just blown away by the maturity and the insight of a 20 21 year old today speaking about her life experiences, her roles as a caregiver, and as a self advocate.

Just unbelievable. Yeah. So our guest today is a young woman in Denver finishing her undergraduate degree, an amazing artist, but also Andrea, our teacher. Yes. She simplified things that made me that that I so often complicate.

Mhmm. Same. I don't know if it's a generational thing, but there certainly were so many moments in this conversation where I just felt like, my gosh, here I am, 50 something, getting great resources and tidbits from a 20 something year old. It's mind blowing. It is.

Well, let's meet Ella. Ella Serholz is a student at the University of Colorado at Denver. She will be graduating this May with a degree in illustration, and she is an incredibly talented and skilled artist. She specializes in storyboarding, visual development, writing for animated film and television, in addition to freelance illustration and fine art. And she'll be looking for a job soon.

Right, Ellis? We gotta pump you up there. Yes. I am. Ella was a TEDx speaker in 20 21.

She gave a TED Talk entitled Art of Vulnerability as part of the TEDx Youth at Vail. And we are so excited to have you, Ella. Thank you for joining us. Thank you so much for having me. I'm really, really grateful for the opportunity to talk about it more.

So we really wanna celebrate that part of you and learn more about can you talk a little bit about how you came to speak at this I don't know if you called it just a general speaking event, but there was a TED Talk event in Vail, Eagle County, um, in 20 21. It's an entirely student organized event, um, and they do it every year. And so I had had friends who had done pieces for it before, but I had been able to help out with set design for something for 1 of the years prior. Yeah. They just open up applications every year for people to sign up.

And I I did speech and debate, which is like an after school club thing where it's like like a bunch of different speaking events and you go and compete. You know, not to not to toot my own horn, but I got state champion a couple of times in my event that I did a couple of times. I say once, but, um, even being, like, I just tend to be kind of a very shy, anxious person, but that was just something I happen to do and really enjoy. And so it kind of fit into that category. And, yeah, I just figured, like, I would apply on a whim because I had things to talk about.

And at the time, um, it was my senior year of high school, and I was doing an AP art studio class or an AP art portfolio, whatever it was, alongside it, and we had to pick a concentration to do a bunch of pieces for it. And so what I had chosen was, yeah, piece of centric around my mom and kind of what she was going through and what our family was going through at the time. And it just coincided well with the topic that I wanted to discuss, and I think it fit in well to the theme that year. And so, yeah, just kind of applied on a whim, and I heard back from them that I had been accepted. That's incredible.

Well, you're a teenager at that time, a teenager in high school speaking about the art of vulnerability. How did that come about? How did you land on that topic and that specific focus? I think necessity of survival is really what I would break it down to because I I am a firm believer in if you don't access those feelings, they're going to get you eventually. And also, I think it really comes down to I think it's a very generational thing on how we respond to like, how we respond to and process trauma and, like, how we feel about accessing mental health resources and therapy and even acknowledging that we have those issues.

And it's fantastic to see that, especially now, like, a lot more people, especially my age group, are really, really encouraging talking about mental health and going to therapy. And, you know, there's less stigma around these different issues and there's less stigma around medication and getting help and just talking about these things. And I don't think that is especially true for a lot of age groups above ours because I don't know. It's I think that therapy and just talking and being vulnerable in general is very taboo thing. And, like, I I have we have a history of a lot of different mental health things in my family.

You know, half of my family is very Midwestern. We don't talk about it sort of thing. Um, Just kinda keep it all under wraps, and that's what it was for a lot of my growing up. It was very much we need to hide this. We need to make sure that, like, no 1 sees this.

This isn't an issue. I can't let anyone know that this is a problem going on because it's just too scary to face. Yeah. I mean, now it's, like, at this point, it's it's just become necessary for my ongoing existence as a person. Like, I I need to be able to acknowledge these things if I'm going to lead a life where I'm happy and healthy and functional.

And so I've been able to I've been doing therapy with a therapist that I really like for a bunch of years now, and I've finally gotten access to medication. And I finally, like, talked with my younger sister When I'm seeing her kind of go through that same journey of going to therapy and figuring out all her stuff, even as a lot of our issues are ongoing, it's not hidden anymore. Real quickly. So you said that you came from a family that for early in your years kept things under wraps. You went out and did a public speaking event on vulnerability and talking about these issues.

How did you have the courage to do that? I mean, that's just so impressive to me because you were rate you just said you were raised not to do that. Thank you. I mean, I don't know. As soon as I was thinking about it and and kind of deciding on it, I got support from them to do it.

I mean, I think it was 1 of those things where it wasn't super intentional. They didn't want me to hide things on purpose. That's just kind of, you know, what you learn from observation. But Sure. I I had that support from them when I decided to do that.

And also, I think that approaching that idea through art first, really helped. Because that's just that's a way that makes a lot of sense to me to communicate and and express myself through. Uh, that's a good point with the art. Mhmm. Do you think the art helps you tap like, originally helped you tap into some feelings that you didn't even realize that you you had?

Oh. I mean, I'm not an artist. So I don't I don't know any of that, but that's wow. Oh, definitely. I mean, I think a lot of it started out as escapism, and then it kind of turned into a form of processing, which helped with this.

And now sometimes I I kind of struggle to access that the same way because I'm not living in those same circumstances. Sure. So it doesn't come up as easily or it's a little I find it's a little more difficult for me right now for whatever reason to be super vulnerable in that way or like access super deep themes through art, but it still holds the same amount of importance. Yeah. Could be, like, it's such great therapy for certain people.

Oh, definitely. Can I ask a non artist question? This is going to really be a non artist question. So when you're doing art and you're accessing those deep feelings, are you like, I picture myself, like, sobbing over because that's how I process things. Are you feeling are you laughing or crying?

Or, I mean, just are you feeling those intense feelings as you're doing the art? Or you just is that how you're getting those feelings out? That's such a good question. I know. I I want to get to the point where I am, like, feeling so deeply and outwardly expressing it when I'm making stuff.

That's something that I'm still working on is is still, like, accessing those super raw emotions because I I just I have a tendency to not present those things outwardly. I think that's most of us. Yeah. Yeah. And especially now that I'm at a point where I'm kind of more comfortable talking about it and I've been able to process a lot of it, It's really things I don't know.

I I find myself, like, really overwhelmed with those emotions in certain, like, circum So that's that's when it gets, like, super emotional. But, yeah, it's it's kind of hard to say. I haven't [00:10:00] really gotten to a point where I've been overwhelmed when I've been making stuff. That's just sort of my way of getting it out. And it's either the before or the after that's kind of that intense emotional moment.

It's such a gift to have that vehicle to process anything. Because a lot of us, like Andrea and I, well, we'll process verbally maybe with each other, or however we're doing it independent of each other. We don't have that ability to channel emotions like you do Right. In an art form. So I think that's that's such a great question, Andrea.

But, yeah, you do kinda you wonder. But I guess the other thing that really sticks out is lucky for you that you have that that way to to channel channel the emotions. Oh, I am so incredibly grateful that that's something that I had and that was supported and encouraged and that I've been able to continue to do. I don't know, though. I'm I'm a firm believer in the idea that that's for anybody.

Like, art therapy is for anybody. Drawing is for anybody. There's no standard of what it has to be. I don't think it's ever had to look a certain 1 way or depict any 1 thing. It's just kind of like the the act itself is so therapeutic that it can take any shape, and it's just it's for anybody.

I don't I don't think there's any sort of gatekeeping of what art is. You know? So we don't have to be able to draw like you is what you're saying to have some benefit. My stick figures will suffice. I'm not sure if I can express raw emotion with my stick figures, though.

I don't know. I I like a stick figure. I I still I still like my stick figures. I mean, I find that when I am doing something emotional, it it's not really that refined. It's more scribbly and imperfect, and it's just more to get the idea out instead of, like, the actual final product.

And I I often find that I let go or I just, like, ignore a lot of the the schooling. Yeah. But I've been or just whatever, like, the rules are for something to look good. And I just get more scribbly and quick, and it looks more, I don't know. It it maybe looks more crude, but it's more it makes I don't know.

It's better for More authentic for you. The same. Yeah. Mhmm. It's more real time.

I'm not so focused on the aesthetics of it. Yeah. I wonder if that's like because we're talking to somebody. Remember, Anne, about being in the body, even she talked a little bit about somatic therapy. Through the act of drawing or even scribbling rather than just, like, swirling thoughts in our head and being stuck in emotion.

So maybe that's part of the key to it. I think too. So my mother-in-law, she was 1 course away from getting her doctorate in child psychology. Then she had my husband and eventually Monique Ramsey (twenty-three 20 three): 1 course away? 1 course away.

Oh my God. Oh my God. Anyways, she And then she dedicated her life to, you know, other things. But so my son, when he was 3 or 4, was like having nightmares and grappling with all of this stuff. And I'm like, what in the world is going on with a 3 or 4 year old?

And so she said, we'll have him draw some pictures. And so I gave him a whiteboard marker and he drew on our big, like, living room window. And he's drawing these pictures, like, these blobs in the sky and then, like, with things coming down. Now my husband is a huge history fanatic. Mhmm.

Loves World War 2. Apparently, those big blobs in the sky with the things coming down were airplanes shooting bombs or dropping bombs down. And so he was having nightmares over this over this thing. And so I think art is from a very fundamental level when we're as we're developing as kids a way to communicate as well Absolutely. And not have to use words.

Yeah. Good point. Absolutely. No. I think, yeah, art therapy or just like art of any drawing of any kind is especially important for kids because I mean, that's how, you know, that's how we communicate before we have words.

We communicate in touch and and pictures and kind of like been a way to depict those arbitrary concepts that we don't have the capability to describe yet. And that's a great way to teach kids to embrace that vulnerability and learn how to describe their emotions right off the get go. I mean, you don't you don't need to be able to talk. You don't need to have the language to describe how you're feeling yet. Like, I I only just learned the language to describe my feelings, like, a year or 2 ago.

I mean, it's it's taking me up until this point, and I know that comes, like, even later for a lot of people. So with that sort of vulnerability. Yeah. You made a good point. And I think those insights do come later for many, if not most people.

And so that's why Andrea and I think it's so special to meet you and have this conversation because you're young and have Yeah. Wisdom of somebody much older. And we'll give people the links to that TED talk so they can hear it for themselves. But, um, Andrea and I were just talking about you being a young person as you relayed in that TED Talk. You are a young person and a caregiver and realize the need for vulnerability, as you say, but also the need to lean into a support group and be open and ask for help.

We thought that that was pretty amazing that you came to those conclusions when you were just a teenager. Can you describe how that came about for you, those realizations? Yeah. I mean, I think at the time, I was saying that more than I was feeling it, like, knowing that's the right thing to do, but not but, like, having such a difficult time putting that into practice myself. And, I mean, I I still even struggle to do that sometimes because I never know, like, what's too much to share, what's enough, like, you know, like, how much of this am I supposed to put on other people?

How much do I need to process myself? It's all there's still, like, a lot of unanswered questions and things that I'm working through, and I I believe that that's gonna be a lifelong process, but I think a lot of that realization came from too, like, how crucial the support was from our friends and family in order to just have been able to live a somewhat normal life for that period of time. Like, our, uh, 1 of our family friends and our neighbors, and it was Bill. He would drive us into school every single day. A lot of the time, he was the reason that we had food and that we like, he has a daughter that's my sister's age That was a friend out there, you know.

And I mean, like, he even was someone that I was able to talk to because he would he would have conversations with me like I was not like I was a full adult, you know, because I'm in fourth grade, you can't let you know, you can't talk to a fourth grader like they're a full adult. But he he treated me like I wasn't a little kid, and I was able to have those conversations with him. He was the reason that my mom was able to get to the hospital in time because she had, like, this, like, really, really late stage liver failure. Oh, gosh. And me and my sister, like, at that point, that had just become normal.

We weren't able to recognize those signs. Also, because you have someone who's going through this and telling you, like, no. It's fine. There's no problem. And you're just like, oh, okay.

This is normal. Mom says so. Yeah. He was a friend to her through all that because she struggles really with that connection too. So, yeah, that's like family friend support.

Um, I mean, lots of other people from around the valley. My aunt, my grandparents, they would fly out from Michigan just to take care of me and my sister, like, overnight just so we had an adult around to take care of us because my dad had to go to work, so he wasn't able to be there. So, yeah, I mean, I just getting to the point of realization, like, oh, all of these people chipped in to make sure that me and my sister were getting this basic support that we needed Yeah. And just able to so we were able to eat every day. So we're we were able to have an adult that was looking after us.

And even if they weren't able to do that 100 percent of the time, it was enough to where we were okay in that sense. And, I mean, if we had just been so completely isolated for that entire time, I mean, like, who's to say, uh, where we would be now? Well, you really had validation that it was okay, that you didn't have to carry the world on your shoulders. You know, we always say when when kids are younger and everything, you know, like, they fall down, you're like, get up. You know, and you're trying to teach them to be independent.

But the reverse of that is we also need to teach them to be dependent with things when things get tough. So you had kind of that natural, unfortunately, that natural opportunity to learn that at a young age that it's okay that you don't need to just walk around with the burden all the time. It's very important to get help from other people, and people are wanna give that help. Oh, yeah. And, I mean, I think it took a while for that to stick because that that was more in reflection that I figured that out.

And I think at the time, I just spent most of that growing up period thinking like, oh, I have to take care of all this stuff. Like, me and my sister who is 3 and a half years younger than me, so she even got a lot of that from a younger age than I am. And, I mean, she's, like, 1 of the most mature, like, [00:20:00] amazing, thoughtful people that I know. Um, I think the world of her, but we kind of we almost had different, like, different roles in being caretakers. Like, I would I would do a lot of the clean the house for the most part, do food, stuff like that.

And she was kind of more of an emotional caretaker for my mom, and they had a connection in that way, mostly for for worse. But, yeah, we we almost would fulfill those 2 different roles and self contain that almost because we wouldn't even talk to each other about it. But once it kind of got to the point where she was fine like, my mom finally was in these programs, and we had a second to kind of see like, just breathe for a sec and reflect and kind of see her in a completely different state than what she was doing before. And just be like, oh, yeah. It's it's really important to tell people what's going on even if a lot of the time we're being told we don't need to or being encouraged like, there were lots of moments in reflection where I should have told somebody what was going on or I should have called somebody else to help figure it out and I didn't.

But I I can't really blame myself for that because that's just what I knew how to do. So I I'm just I'm grateful that we got around to that eventually, and I figured that out eventually and had kind of a safe environment to think about that in. You know what I mean? Mhmm. But I'm sure, like, I'm sure it's just a constant journey of figuring out how to rely on other people as you go throughout your life.

1 thing you mentioned was Bill. Yeah. Like, you you called him out specifically. And I think remember, um, Emie, and I can't remember which episode it was. But there was the gentleman who said that children who grow up to show resiliency had 1 very instrumental adult in your in their life.

Remember that? Now you've had many, but you pointed out Bill. And if I'm Bill, I'm giving myself a big old, you know, pat on the back or whatever. But I think it's important for people to hear adults to hear how important we are, what the difference we can make in a child's life long term. I mean, this is years after this, by just listening and by treating them, you know, with compassion like we do and hearing them out, even if we're not related to them, even if we're not parenting them.

Yeah. Especially with young people, they're they're always watching, taking it all in. You never know what's sticking. Mhmm. No.

He he was also 1 of the only adults that really, like, would talk to my mom and also saw firsthand what was going on. And when we would talk, you know, he never tried to pretend that he knew what was best for me or that he was, like, the number 1 role model in my life. But, I mean, that was really important because I just got to have, like, even if they weren't related to stuff that was going on at home, I got to have, like, a lot of really honest conversations with him about just various things and, like, his life and the things that he's done. So, yeah, definitely a very, very instrumental person in my growing up. And I'm I'm really grateful that he was there and really showed up for us even though he never had to.

You know? He chose to a lot of the time and very grateful for it because I think a lot of that has stuck with who I am now. Mhmm. I bet. Yeah.

It's great that you have that very keen sense of awareness and that gratitude because that's beautiful. And you just take that and you plant it and becomes more and more and more in your life. Love it. Absolutely. The gratitude is very important.

Yes. I've found that's like, I I know that that's what a lot of people say and you're like, oh, how does just being grateful, like, improve my life at all? I mean, that feels like such a small thing, but it really does. It keeps you looking for the positives. It keeps you finding the good things even if there's only, like, 1 or 2 right then.

There are always things to appreciate, and it kinda keeps you out of the it gives you something to latch onto even when you're you know, everything feels like it's crashing down. You know, curating these valuable conversations is really about our shared passion for promoting mental wellness. Behind the scenes, however, there are several platforms and systems that help us bring these episodes to you. If you found value in our conversations and feel inspired to support, please consider making a donation. Whether it's the price of coffee or wine or more, your contribution directly supports our ability to keep connecting, sharing, and growing with you.

Please visit our website at this way up podcast dot com to support this community. We thank you, and we appreciate you. What does a gratitude practice look like for you? How does that awareness um, how do you use that or, you know yeah. I don't even know how to word it, but how does that work for you?

Like, how are you remembering that? And what is the cadence of that? How does that pop up in life? I think it keeps me from being super anxious all the time. I mean, if I it's not even always super on purpose either.

Like, there there's not any time I sing to myself where I'm gonna, like, I'm gonna block this out or I'm gonna journal it or anything like that. I I can just kind of sit and just take a deep breath for a second and look around me and go, you know what? Yeah. I'm I'm allowed to feel good for 5 minutes. Yeah.

I'm allowed to appreciate where I am and look around and find, like, a thing or 2 that I really like about my surroundings. Like, oh, I'm gonna watch this squirrel over here. He's doing something weird that makes me happy. You know? Just like anything that's even if it's super, super small, I'm just fine.

Just taking a deep breath and finding, like, anything even if it's not just, like, being intentional for a moment. Doesn't have to be, like, a whole big thing, but just for a second. Like, it's so very, very grounding, super important, keeps me from crumbling in pieces a lot of the time. Yeah, that's huge. You said you're, um, a very anxious person.

I would imagine having all of those responsibilities from when you were a kid probably and not really knowing how to manage that has, uh, you know, probably that's probably why, right? But you don't seem anxious. You seem, you know, we get you on the, um, we see you on the TED Talk, and you're so well spoken, and you're just, you know, very mature and everything. What kind of things are you doing to help relieve that anxiety so that you can go out and just be the the bubbly girl that you are? Thank you.

Honestly, I'm not entirely sure. I think a lot of it is just internal, and I've gradually become accustomed to not letting that have such a choke hold on me. But, definitely, I mean, like, a lot of that a lot of that social energy just kinda comes from being nervous. And, like, when you mentioned the TED talk too, public speaking makes me more nervous than anything. And, like, my face gets all red, and I feel like I'm gonna, like, start coughing because my mouth gets so dry, and I'm so nervous.

And, actually, like, for that talk specifically, it had been a year since we were going to do it, so I hadn't looked at it at all. I hadn't practiced it at all. I hadn't done anything, so I memorized it right before I went up on stage and did it. And it's like I I remember. I you can barely notice it now because I went back and I looked for it.

There's, like, a second where I pause. That felt like 10 minutes. I was all of a sudden, I froze. I was like, oh my god. What do I do?

Um, but, yeah, I think it's just come from learning how to play it off a little bit better and just kinda hoping for the best and forcing myself not to think about how that comes off. I think self awareness is important, but when it gets to the point where it's controlling your every thought, it's okay to dial it back a little bit. You know, just trying to think not think too hard about how other people are perceiving that because end of the day, it is what it is and that doesn't matter so much. Yeah. Just like thinking about the the other person's perception because a lot of that anxiety is social and kind of how that works with other people.

And again, like, the vulnerability or just, like, how my relationships with other people look, that perception there. Or even if I just get myself into these thought spirals about everything bad that's going on, you know, that's what either, like, a combination of shutting off my brain for a little bit and also just looking for good things helps me to just kind of move move forward in a way that's more practical, if that makes any sense. I kind of feel like I just rambled there for a second. But That makes sense. Well, it sounds like you have a lot, a lot of different ways.

Yeah. And you really like I don't know, Andrea, what you think. I think it sounds like you're using a really healthy lens, a healthy perspective, because you do point yourself towards light and positivity and gratitude. And pretty much everything you've been talking about has been, in some way a positive reflection of a lot of challenge and struggle in your past, which is very beautiful. And you've clearly just I don't know how I'll say it.

You have like a yes and kind of mentality, right? You're not hinging back on, Oh, these bad things happened, or this is my past trauma, or this is my [00:30:00] difficult childhood. You never say those things. You're just saying, yes, and, and I had Bill, and he taught me this, and I'm grateful. I have this.

I have art. This is my process. And it's just so completely heartwarming, I guess. Refreshing. Yeah.

Thank you. And I think that's what creates resilience. Yeah. That's why you're able to get through all of this because you do you just are like, okay, this is what perspective. Yeah.

Yeah. Your perspective. Back to perspective, Emie. Yeah. Yeah.

It's a word that comes up almost every single conversation. Monique Ramsey (3five 30 four): I know. That's all we need. All we need is that perspective as a tool. Monique Ramsey (3five 30 four): Perspective is very important for sure.

Monique Ramsey (3five 30 four): Yeah. Ellen, what is it like in your peer group, people your age, your friends? And how do conversations of mental health pop up or do they in in younger people today? Yeah. I mean, for the most part, it just comes up very casually.

People are just very casually open with their things that they're going through even without going into too much detail where it maybe gets a little more personal. It just is something that's there, and it's not really an elephant in the room, and people just talk very openly or, like, jokingly or casually about it. And that's just very standard subject. But then if I get into those more serious conversations with my friends, like, we all are able to rely on each other in a way that doesn't feel too overwhelming because all of us are, you know, like, in therapy or getting help in some way or another or processing. And so it's it's not like we are maybe I I hesitate to use the word burdening because I know a lot of people can feel like when they're sharing their struggles with other people, they can tend to feel like a burden when they're not.

Yeah. But, also, it's important to acknowledge that when you're talking about your struggles, it can take an emotional toll on the other person, and you need to make sure that they're in a place where they're able to receive that and hear it. And so with with everyone being so open about their mental health and what help they're getting and the resources that they have, everyone's in a place to receive those talks, and we're able to just be honest with each other and support each other, um, give advice if the other person wants it, or just be there to listen and kind of update each other on on where we're at. And so I think there's, I would say, there's little to no stigma around people's mental health struggles. And I mean, that's I think that's very different for a lot of people.

I think that's probably because I'm in a place where I'm around a lot of other people who think the same way I do about that. I know that there are still so many people who are my age that are struggling with that and are in, like, very different stages of of where they're at with that. So it's not really a 1 size fits all thing, but I would say that generally for my age group, it's a very non stigmatized thing. That's interesting. Emie, so you said 1 thing where you would which I probably get it innately because I'm kind of a people person and I'm an empath.

But you said such an important thing, which was when you are sharing things that you need to be able to recognize that the other person is able at that point to receive that. I think that's such an important thing to teach somebody or to to follow-up on with your own kids. Mhmm. I mean, I don't think I've ever really had that conversation because it just comes so naturally to me. But I know my husband has said something like, read the room.

Well, that's not very what what read the room. What are you talking about? You know what? You get it, but it's a little it's not it's it's not as soft. But is is that person able to receive this at this moment?

It's huge. That's huge. Yeah. How would you know that? Right.

I mean, really, like, ask is what I've found is just ask, like, hey. Are you are you can I, like, tell you something, or can I, like, ask for advice on something? And it's totally fine to say no. You know? It's it's completely okay to be like, hey.

I don't really know if I can take that in right now. I don't know if I can deal with that, and that's not a fault on anyone's part. You know? And I think it's so important that we learn how to approach that in a way where a no is not seen as a complete rejection because I think a lot of people may get discouraged by the possibility of a no and be like, oh, I can't talk to anybody because it shouldn't be anyone else's problem but mine. It's too big of a burden to bear for any of these other people.

And, like, to a degree, it might have been because we were in middle school and high school, and I couldn't rely on any 1 other child to listen to my issues and do something about them. But that's why there are professionals who I mean, that's why, like, therapy resources are getting more and more accessible. They're not always great because I know, like, really good therapy can be very expensive, but they're it's getting there's a lot more available now. It's it's really important to reframe that mindset of, I can talk to people about what I'm going through. It's not going to be too much.

I just need to find the right people at the right time, and you can't really expect someone. And it's hard, but that's that's really important because I think that fear keeps a lot of people from being open with anybody at all. And that shouldn't be the case. Just because, like, your your friend isn't able to help you with this situation doesn't mean that nobody is able to help you with that situation. Yeah.

Good point. That idea I'm so glad you explained it the way you did because so many different things popped up when you when you were talking. But the idea of not wanting to be a burden, just that in and of itself, to me, is very closely aligned with, I don't want to be vulnerable. So that I mean, I because I'm just, of course, looking at it from my perspective, what I've done in the past. I might say, oh, I don't wanna bother you.

But really what I'm saying is I don't want to share. I don't want to be vulnerable. So your response of when Andrea and I are like, oh, how how do you know if somebody can receive what you're about to give them? You say ask. Okay.

If I ask if I go to Andrea, right, the next time I have a nuclear meltdown and Andrea's on the other line, if I were to ask, I've already taken out that part where I'm afraid to be vulnerable because I've already put it out there. So you also alleviate the burdening aspect. But those are so similar to me. The burden, not wanting to be a burden, and just not wanting to share. Right?

Oh, definitely. And I mean, I think a a lot of that comes from the overthinking of it too. And that's what the explicit ask for moves is there's there's not the room to overthink. You don't you're not sitting there anticipating what the other person's thoughts and and actual responses. It's you're just you're asking.

You know, that's a complete that's very open. You know? You're not like, oh, I'm overthinking. What are they gonna say? What aren't they gonna say?

How do they actually feel? What am I doing to them? And you literally do that. You literally ask. You do that.

You practice that. Oh, yeah. 100 percent. You brought up 2 good points, and I think I've learned something very important today. 1 is that you have to ask for it, you know, the asking piece of it.

But then 2, the other person has the responsibility and the ability to say no. Mhmm. And I think by imprinting that in my mind that the other person has control over whether or not they wanna hear my questions or feelings at that moment. And that if they don't, they'll say no. That would calm my mind enough to know that I can then ask and not fear that they're sitting back there, you know, judging what I'm saying or saying, Oh my gosh, you know, I really wanna go to Target in 5 minutes.

Why do you keep on talking to me? Because the responsibility is back on them. Andrea, would you ever say no if I asked if I can? No. Yeah.

I was gonna say, you wouldn't. But at the same token at the same token, I would never say no. But I would also I just would be there. You know, that's the type of person that I am. I would just be there.

Although I do need Yeah, well, okay, Emie, you bring up a good point, because there are several people that my daughters had to intervene and be like, Okay, yeah, No. This is my mom. She does not need to, you know, be your therapist for them. So but no. I would never tell you, Noemi.

You can always you can always call. It's it's hard when you're someone who likes to say yes because I'm I'm also 1 of those people. I'm I'm also always like, yeah. I'm super open to talk. I'm always here for you.

Tell me anything that you need all the time. And it could get like, I could very easily let it get to a point where it's detrimental to me. And so it's it's really hard to get over that fear of saying no. But, I mean, the thing that I think helps me is that no isn't permanent. It's just for that moment in time, and I could take some time to prepare myself or just to kind of evaluate, like, where I'm at and how supportive I can be or even if it's, like, a limited amount of supportive I can be at the time and not just, like, super limitless.

So it's it's hard to navigate that, but I think it it makes it more open and honest when you have that very explicit understanding between those 2 people, you know? I would agree. Yeah. I've got kind of a personal question. You can just tell me to bug off if you want to.

So I would imagine when you were young and you were a caregiver and you were being asked to do things, you did them because you didn't know how to say no or probably didn't even know that you could say no. [00:40:00] And you've alluded to the fact that now things are tough again. Have you been able to grow into those boundaries and be able to put you have. That's fantastic. Definitely.

Yeah. I mean, part of it is being physically separated from it, and I have been able to somewhat establish those boundaries with my mom that if she is in a state, I can't she can't just, like, reach out to me with a lot of things that I I just can't hear or I can't talk to her about. And, you know, it's those boundaries didn't exist at all when I was growing up. I mean, it's I figured I couldn't say no because when I tried, it just wasn't received. Like, I I didn't really have the option because of backlash.

I just kind of had to do what I needed to do. And as such, like, my sense of boundaries just completely nonexistent. In my mind, the things that I did really only existed to help other people and to serve other people and be, like, completely selfless to the point where I didn't really consider my own needs at all. Mhmm. And now it's gotten to a point where I I can advocate for those needs.

And even if it's in a sort of way where it's not maybe being heard in the way that I would like to communicate, I'm still able to take a step back. I'm not afraid of that backlash. I know that I'm fine. Mhmm. Establishing boundaries can be very tricky.

How did you learn to do that, or did you have help to gain that perspective? How did that work? Yeah. Therapy definitely helped me, um, with figuring out how to navigate that and what to say and just even, like, having the confidence to do that. Because really to establish boundaries, a big part of what it relies on is the other person accepting those and and standing by those.

And it's really difficult to say, like, hey. I am not in a position where this is okay with me and the other person who just completely choose to not listen to that and just keep going. And so I've kind of needed to learn how to just separate myself. And, like, for me, that looks like turning off my phone. It's just that's a pretty easy way to approach it.

It's just Yeah. I can just turn off my phone, but just finding, like, your own space going somewhere where you can, like, isolate yourself and just say, like, hey. I have these boundaries, you know, if and it's it's really hard. It's it's so tricky because it's not a 1 size fits all. I'm in a position where taking a step back works for me, but, you know, like, I I didn't I didn't used to be.

That wasn't an option for me. It really is so dependent on the situation. Yeah. Well, now knowing that you have learned so much about establishing and maintaining boundaries, It makes perfect sense, the statement she made earlier, Andrea, about being asked to if I'm ready and in place that I wanna receive that. Right.

That's her demonstrating her boundaries that are even beyond me. Like right? So mature. Mhmm. Very mature.

Unbelievable. You know, the world gets scared of your generation because you're using text to communicate. They're like, how are they going to socially navigate? But the more and more I talk with young people your age, the more and more I am impressed with your ability to tap into yourself and to advocate for yourself and then communicate that out in an articulate, non abrasive way that facilitates a conversation. I'm just I'm in awe.

I'm in awe. So well said, Andrea. Yeah. Thank you. You're welcome.

It makes sense to me. It kinda seems like a pattern where the the generations above the other ones will look down on them for various reasons, and I know that's a cycle. Like, even now, I I look at 10 year olds and I'm like, oh. 0, you have a lot of issues. You know?

Like, oh, but I yeah, I mean, I of course, tons of problems as as there is, but also I'm very proud of my age group for really mobilizing their resources and using things like social media and online communication as a tool to be loud about stuff that they care about and to reach out to all kinds of people. Because, I mean, the reach that you have on the Internet is infinite, especially compared to, you know, communication before that was so widespread. You have your immediate circles, but now you have, like, an infinite reach to anybody you could ever possibly think of. And every day I see people, like, using their platforms to talk about things that to share factual information, to organize rallies, to, you know, create things like like podcasts and online discussions and videos and Amazing TED Talks. Just really, right, just just really taking advantage of those tools.

Yeah. Thanks for pointing that out. Again, another very mature, helpful perspective. Monique Ramsey (3five 30 four): Absolutely. Monique Ramsey (3five 30 four): You have been our teacher today.

Monique Ramsey (3five 30 four): Ella, this took a direction that I wasn't anticipating, but I am so grateful for. Yeah. Really, really grateful for. Absolutely. You're very well spoken.

Thank you. Doctor. Whitfield (twenty-three 30 four): And you're gonna do great things. Doctor. Whitfield (twenty-three 30 four): Yeah.

Doctor. Whitfield (twenty-three 30 four): Thank you. Doctor. Whitfield (twenty-three 30 four): As somebody who's speaking of you, has been a former teenager more recently than myself, what advice would you give to, let's say, a teenage individual listening to you right now who does struggle with asking for help, who struggles with that honest communication and vulnerability? How would you coach them?

It's never gonna feel perfect. You're you're never gonna feel like you're doing it 100 percent right. It, especially at first, it'll always feel awkward. There's no perfect way to go about doing that. It's it's always going to feel a little bit uncomfortable because you're really bearing all of your wounds.

Maybe not all of them, but some of them. And that's a really scary thing to do because that's where judgment hurts the worst. That's where, you know, like, you you don't always know what the other person is going to say. It's, you know, it's just it's it's hard. It's really difficult, but that's kind of how it's supposed to be.

Thank you for that. Ella, thank you so much. It's a joy speaking with you. Yeah. Thank you guys so much for having me on.

It's I don't get the chance to talk about this stuff a lot because it doesn't come up super often, but I think it's it's important for people to to hear. You know? It's very important for people to hear, even 50 some year old people to hear. Thank you for tuning in to today's conversation. To join our community and access more valuable resources, please visit our website at this way up podcast dot com.

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